Ruth Wilson:

Thank you for joining us on the GetSET Women blog. The UKRC will watch with great interest the work of the Committee, and we aim to contribute whenever appropriate with information on gender equality to assist the committee with its work.

My question is - there are only a few women scientists and engineers in the House of Commons (there are 13 listed as qualified or with a strong interest on the CaSE website). What do you think can be done to change that?

(And I hope any women visiting for the first time who are in science/engineering/technology/built environment - including MPs - will join, free, GetSET Women online and keep in the loop on all sorts of relevant information and opportunities.)

Andrew Miller MP:

Thanks for your question, it is one that should give us all cause for concern. Only 10% of the House has any STEM background so the 13 women you have identified is not suprising.
Projects like the Royal Society pairing of Fellows with MP's are as important as attempts to improve science teaching at primary level. But there is no quick fix. Your question reflects broader issues within society and the bottom line in that we caary on rejecting stereotypes. In the meantime let's celebrate the fact that Chi Onwurah MP (an engineer) has joined the shadow ministerial team.

Sarah:

All of the women in Science and Engineering I know are commited and enthusiastic about what they do. The way to keep them there and to encourage more women to follow them? Fund more science and engineering research, don't cut it!

Rachel Tobbell:

I wonder whether the Science and Technology Committee ever actively considers gender in the course of its work? It could be argued that most STEM topics have a gender dimension and that it is unhelpful to think of gender as something separate and specific. Would this be a view that your Committee members would sympathise with?

Andrew Miller MP:

Sarah,
You are talking to the converted but let's hope that the Treasury or No 10 are reading these exchanges!

Rachel,
We are a new committee and are still feeling our way, but any evidence out there on this important aspect should be sent to us when contributing to any enquiry we undertake. I would encourage people to keep an eye on our news page at http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/science-and-technology-committee/ and make sure evidence is sent in for us to consider.

Melissa:

Its great to hear your son is a nurse and your daughter a research scientist. A report last week looking at graduates going into jobs found that nursing remains very female despite fantastic efforts by the Royal College of Nursing. SET remains very male, even though the UKRC, professional bodies, enlightened employers and others do really good work.

'Gender stereotypes are very hard to shift' the report concluded.

Your family has managed a sea change - how do we scale that up to society as a whole?

Marion Scott:

In your experience, perhaps in your constituency, what do you think incentivises or drives businesses to want to do something really systemic about improving the representation of women in SET in their workforces? And what are the barriers to this sort of action?

Andrew Miller MP:

Melissa,
How my son ended up in nursing is a many ways a mystery to me - he was running a successful business in the catering sector and simply announced he was quitting and funding his way through unversity! I don't think our household has any great insight into how these things work other than the fact that we don't always look stereotypical. My favourite picture of my daughter is aged about 5 using a screwdriver!

Andrew Miller MP:

Marion,
I can only say that more and more companies locally are looking more sensibly at the contribution made by all their staff and are investing in the future. I also see more and more
women in front line SET jobs. These two observations cannot be diconnected!
Just by way of example, the launch engineer for the latest Vauxhall car made in Ellesmere Port was a woman and you just have to look at their market share to see what I mean.

Andrew Miller MP:

Just by way of a new thread let me bring readers up to date with my week so far:
Interviewing for specialist advisers for one of the Committee inquiries was challenging (this included one high calibre woman for one important part).

Lunch with the Zoo community was informative. I know through my links with Chester Zoo how much important work is being undertaken in this sector.

Today's select committee meeting with our Lords counterparts will I am sure lead to some productive work. But that was followed by the statement to the House about university funding. Help! This could have profound implications on its own yet alone when added together with cuts in research budgets and cuts in overseas students.
But the day ended well with the prize giving for the Pitcom primary schools competition. The Speaker thanked me for my work on this by telling the audience I was a computer anorak but I'll forgive him! The kids were fantastic and we hope to make it bigger and better as an event next year.

Now I am off to vote in the House.

Trudy, Chair UKRC:

Andrew,

First of all, thank you for giving your time and energy to our agenda.
The theme of our Conference today was 'Women Mean Business'. With the government about to publish a White Paper on the growth agenda for the UK, how do you think we can engage more women to contribute both their capability and potential to generating growth for our country?

Andrew Miller MP:

Trudy,

That's a tough question for 10.40pm but here are some thoughts!

If UK plc is to succeed the growth agenda has to engage all of the nation’s talent, so my first message is to Government: if the White Paper is to mean anything then it must target the whole population. That message also needs to be sent to every employer.

Secondly, too many people I come across, especially women, lack the confidence to promote their ability. This starts at the very basic level like the young single mum who came to see me. She had a polite, clean, smartly dressed 3 year old writing letters on a piece of paper on my office floor, but told me she had no skills! I pointed out the contradiction to her and encouraged her to be more confident. To cut a long story short - she moved into employment and some time later proudly told me her son was top of his class.

Whilst I have no magic bullet, perhaps your conference can explore how we can all learn from cases like that which occur throughout the employment spectrum.

Audrey:

Hi,
It's great to get an insight into your role! I was wondering how the committee decides which inquiries to hold. And if you submit evidence, do you have any advice on how best to develop and present it so that it makes a real impact on an inquiry and its findings? Thanks.

Imran Khan:

Andrew,

Congratulations on these blogs - I think they're a fantastic way to demonstrate the important interaction between MPs and organisations like UKRC.

You'll be familiar with a lot of the work that's been into the gender gap in academia, and some of the reasons behind it (e.g. publication gaps when people take family breaks, gender stereotypes at schools, the 'two body problem').

Do you think there's a role for the select committee to build on the UKRC's work and look at the evidence, but also go further and recommend directly to government and universities what reforms and mechanisms might close the gap?

Best wishes from all at Campaign for Science and Engineering!

Imran

Andrew Miller MP:

Audrey,
The priorities for our inquiries emerge as a result of:
a) Considering the issues of the day. eg would could hardly ignore the CSR at the present time
b) Considering scoping papers that we commission from amongst our specialist staff
c) Listening to suggestions coming from colleagues
d) Simply because we think it’s a good idea!

Any input we receive needs where ever possible to meet the normal tests of good science ie to be backed up with solid evidence and possibly peer reviewed.

There is no model way in which we ask for evidence to be presented but remember we are swamped by paper in our lives so well written executive summaries are always a good idea.

Andrew Miller MP:

Imran,

I would hope that the pinciple aims of UKRC are never ignored when my committee undertakes inquiries, but your point is well made.

Jane Butcher:

Hello Andrew, We are back from the UKRC Women Mean Business Conference where over 300 delegates engaged in debate on the actions for women and business that really make a difference to increasing demand and critically, supporting women to stay in SET. We heard from E.ON, Arup, BAESystems, Card Geotechnic and Vodaphone among others on the benefits to business and of working with the UKRC. We also heard from some inspiring and challenging keynote speakers including Professor Lord Robert Winston, Kate Bellingham and Miles Templeman. Kate highlighted that we must also look at the attractiveness of STEM learning itself as a product for both genders, both at first degree and post-graduate levels - and exampled her own experience of re-entering study. Lord Winston raised an important on the effect of increased HE Fees being likely to place most pressure on middle income/average earners and how this may impact disproportionately on women. Be interested in your thoughts on this last point in particular.

Susie:

Hi - I was reading the other day that women are more likely than men work in the public sector, and that therefore they are going to be severely affected by the coming cuts.

I am wondering about the employment profile of women as scientists: are they more likely to be in universities and public health than in the private sector, and therefore are they going to be particularly badly hit. I don't know what the stats are on this. Maybe UKRC can help?

Pat Morton:

Hello Andrew,
I am involved in the STEM careers project and we have been working over the last two years with careers advisers and teachers in schools to raise awareness about STEM carrers to all young people, but especially girls who are under represented. I have just finished reading the Browne Review - i am really pleased that the importance of good careers advice for young people making choices at school about university courses is supported. Unfortunately the cuts in local government spending have seen the careers service across the country being decimated this year, with many careers advisers losing their jobs. It seems everyone is starting to recognise the importance of better careers information, advice and guidance - but just when we were making some progress, things have been demolished again. How can this damage be halted?

Andrew Miller MP:

Jane,
Today's response is coming from the Parliament & Internet conference which will take up a lot of my day as well as time witn COGENT and then finally the British Library.
I am encouraged by the messages you heard from the employers at your conference. This reflects my earlier observation to Marion on the 12th October. Kate Bellingham is one of the best STEM ambassadors and is precisely the kind of person needed to promote the exciting careers in the sector. I recently sent her a link to my favourite Peggy Seeger song "I want to be an engineer". My daughter used to sing it but readers who are not familiar with the song should Google it and remember it was written in 1970. Sadly the challenges reflected in the song are still with us today!

Andrew Miller MP:

Susie and Jane,
Your questions about Browne are important but some real work is needed to fully understand the impact by gender and geography as well as the spectrum of universities.
Unfortunately, universities are not really coming forward with the data, I guess because it would require them to advertise their own weaknesses.UKRC could well be the vehicle through which this work could be done.
If anyone has a good data set that starts to answer these questions please send it to me!

Ruth Wilson:

Hi Andrew,
Thank you so much for all your interesting comments so far - and thanks to all the questioners. This blog is getting lots of hits, so I look forward to reading the next queries and responses.

Our research team is on the case re public sector stats. And here is the link for Pete Seeger singing Peggy Seeger's great song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgzl1Sai4Y0

Andrew Miller MP:

Pat,
I am not convinced that local authorities should be taking the lead in career services. I would however like to see much more engagement by employers in their own communities. As part of their corporate CSR employers should encourage (particularly scientists and engineers) to join school governing bodies, to work with teachers to help ensure schools are up to date. Let me make it clear, schools are not simply about creating the next generation of the particular skills needed by local industry But especially where they have a strong STEM base employers have a resposibilty to work with schools to excite and enthuse students.

Ruth Wilson:

There was an interesting moment at our conference on Tuesday when TV presenter Kate Silverton asked the audience of 320+, wide range of ages, who had had good careers advice at school. Four hands went up...

Pat Morton:

Dear Andrew,
of course employers are vital in raising awareness about careers and must be part of the process. As you say we have some brilliant female role models - like Kate Bellingham (who i work with closely) and others at UKRC conference. However without investment in qualified Careers Professionals young people, girls in particular, will not receive high quality impartial careers information and advice about STEM careers.

Chris Gibson:

Dear Andrew,

At the Institute of Physics and Engineering in Medicine we have observed a real and very positive change in the gender balance in recent years, so that around half of current entrants to this health-related STEM field are now women. However, we still see rather more female physicists than female engineers. How can we change the public image of engineering?

Chris

Andrew Miller MP:

The workshop I have just participated in was a report back from the Internet Governance Forum that I attended in Lithuania in September. Many of the issues will be of interest to UKRC members. Issue ranging from child safety through to the developing mobile banking industry in East Africa were highlighted. I reported back on technolgy developments that are solving problems for people with disabilities accessing on line tools. Now I've got to refocus onto Cogents work in another part of the building. My remarks there will cover recruitment and training and I promise I will not forget the importance of attracting more women into their ranks!

Andrew Miller MP:

Chris,
The question is not can we change the image of engineering - we must do it! That comes back to my comments about career advice in schools. We must provide more help to teachers especially at primary level.

Ruth Wilson:

Hi Andrew and Chris,

The UKRC is very pleased to be working with professional bodies, employers and others to raise the profile of engineering as rewarding and often cutting-edge career for women. Working at school age is vital, as Andrew says. But so also is a range of other action to inspire older students, the public and others with regard to engineering and to keep our women engineers and help them aspire to leadership.

We have a great project - which IPEM is part of - enabling 20 diverse early and mid career women engineers to gain and use media and presentation skills. Its called Ingenious Women: anyone needing a brilliant woman engineer as a speaker or interviewee, please contact me!

Malcolm Davies:

Mr Millar MP
1. Do you believe in positive discrimination?
2. Would it be possible to ask UKRC to give evidence to your committee during one or more of its inquiries?
3. How do you think Ed Miliband did yesterday? I thought he was brilliant. I have re-joined the party (since Manchester) and very much look forward to the future.

Anna Zalevski (Researcher, the UKRC):

Hello Susie and Andrew,

Yes, the stats show that women make up a much larger proportion of public sector than private sector workers, so we should expect that they will be disproportionately affected by the cuts.

Women make up 65% of the public sector work force (about 40% of all women in work in the UK are employed in this sector).

Statistics for science, engineering and technology (SET) show that women with science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) qualifications make up a much bigger proportion of public than private sector:

There are about 291,000 female STEM graduates, making up 20.8% of all STEM graduates employed in private sector. In comparison, 251,000 women make up 43.1% of all STEM graduates in public sector (ONS data from January – September quarter of 2009).

Also, among full-time STEM academic staff nearly 10,000 are women (just over 50% of those women are researchers), compared to just over 31,000 men (HESA data for 2007/08).

The cuts will affect over 250,000 women with STEM qualifications working in public sector! This should be considered in light of the fact that there are many women working in SET who do not have STEM qualifications (defined as a degree in STEM or equivalent).

Andrew Miller MP:

Pat,
You are right of course but try telling the Treasury. Remeber I am not on the Government side of the House!

Andrew Miller MP:

Malcolm,
a) It is not a matter of belief it is a matter of both fairness and economic necessity. Ignoring more that half the population is a daft thing for an employer to do!
b) It would be better for UKRC to offer evidence to any inquiry that is relevant - and I am sure most colleagues irrespective of party wouold welcome it
c)I agree with you!

Andrew Miller MP:

Anna,
I have just left the British Library where I was talking to one of your conference speakers, Dr Aleks Krotoski who was speaking on the same platfrom as me. I am blogging thanks to Virgin Trains Wifi on my way home. I was opening the new project in the library "Growing Knowledge" which is really at the leading edge of inovation. I would urge readers to drop in a look at this stunning project. Sadly after this exciting event much of the chat was doom and gloom about the expected CSR and you are right there are serious risks that women will be worst affected and there is also a north/south risk as well. It is worrying because I fear the Treasury do not understand the importance of research in the STEM sector.

Ellie Sharp:

Andrew - you are promoting women's equality - why don't men in decision making do this more often?

Samantha Alsbury:

One of the most frustrating things I come across repeatedly when discussing gender and employment is women, especially young women, saying women should succeed or not on their own merit and basically supporting the status quo. Positive discrimination is considered by some to be a dirty word.

There are clearly many factors affecting employment of women in STEM especially at the higher levels. What can be done to overcome the social conditioning that if women don't succeed it's because they just don't deserve to more quickly?

Andrew Miller:

Ellie,
Thanks for the kind comment. I think more men see the point but people like you shouldn't miss the chance of reminding men that this is not just about fairness it is about economic sense!

Andrew Miller:

Samantha,
Women can succeed on their own merits and added to positive action, society will continue to change.
I don't accept that the premise in your final sentence is the norm today, but historically you are right. The factors that have brought about the modest changes that have occured have a complex mixture of political action, economic need, widening of education opportunities etc etc.
There is no magic bullet and continued activity is needed on all fronts including the good work being done by UKRC.

Sarah Brown:

Hello Andrew, great you're taking questions here - my qu re women and science/technology is how do we get the young involved - after all interests begin at an early age, how can we encourage women to go for the science and technology route in their studies from infancy and encourage their skills accordingly? All too often young girls are discouraged by gender stereotyping not to enter these fields, how can we stop this?

Jeanne Hatton:

Hello Andrew I have an IT training business operating from Willaston in your constituency I am also a woman’s ambassador here in the North West and the mother of a 15 year old girl. I can see a major push to try to increase the badly needed IT skills in the country and the great job e-skills is doing. Also the opportunities afforded by the IT apprenticeships now being offered by IBM and Microsoft both of which have admirable diversity programmes. I believe the problem begins in schools and though I can see a great deal of encouragement in science subjects I can see little to engage them in IT. The feedback I get from both my children and their friends is that there is little point in learning about things they already know. They perceive the IT curriculum to be far too easy and not engaging enough. From my perspective I can see little in the curriculum which matches the skills that are needed in industry. I wonder if you are aware of any plans afoot to change the curriculum to more closely match the needs of industry and what your opinion is regarding the poor numbers of girls entering IT related disciplines in universities and into the IT industry in general?

Andrew Miller MP:

Sarah,
This is why I want industry and academia to strengthen links with primary schools. Let's have a big drive through the other CSR - corporate social responsibilty - to engage with schools, excite young people about science and engineering. But it wont happen without a lot of hard work!

Andrew Miller MP:

Jeanne,
Firstly, perhaps you could contact my office in Ellesmere Port and see what we can do together in the locality. Just as an example I have run for the last four years a national primary school IT competition called "Make IT Happy". Every school in my constituency has had personal letters from me and for the last two years I am ashamed to say that not one local school has entered. You can imagine my frustration! It is not just the cirriculum that needs changing the problem is far more deep seated. The details of the competition are at http://www.pitcom.org.uk/
By the way another resident in your village is Prof Mike Bode who runs the National Schools Observatory http://www.schoolsobservatory.org.uk/ Have a look at that site and ask yourself why every school in the country insn't clamouring to join!

Averil Macdonald:

Dear Andrew,
The issue of impending fee increases and the potential impact on students' decisions is still to be debated fully. However I'd be interested to know if you think there should be investment in STEM degrees in the form of subsidies from the government for students taking these subjects i.e. lower or zero fees for students taking STEM degrees in the same way that there are no tution fees currently paid by students of nursing? There is no doubt that this would be a considerable incentive on students to opt for STEM subjects and also for VCs to reopen STEM departments that have recently closed, including my own department of Physics at the University of Reading - closed last month.

Averil Macdonald

Jeanne Hatton:

Andrew
I can imagine your frustration - what a great initiative for primary schools "Make IT Happy" is. Also the National Schools Observatory is a great resource - I shall ask around about it. I believe the problem is deep rooted and I am not convinced that the teachers have the necessary support and training. For example one of the things that attracted me to my daughter's schools was that they were using industry standard software for their web design component. I was horrified to learn on the first parents evening that it had not been offered as the teacher could not use the software as she had had no training. I will be in touch Andrew - I have offered to give talks to groups of girls in local schools and though all have been supportive I have yet to receive an invitation. I have many tales to recount of my travelling with my job from the Maldives to Moscow and can make it sound as interesting as being an air stewardess which most of my daughter's friends aspire to. I have pointed out to my daughter's friends that, as A* students they should aim at least to be flying the plane. As you so rightly said before confidence and expectations play such a big part. I should also point out that my comments about IT in schools apply equally to my 13 year old son and his friends. By the way Andrew we have met when you tried to help to get my daughter into Willaston School when she was eight. We had a brief conversation then about the part technology and Lotus Notes played in the Labour Party’s victory in 1997.

Andrew Miller MP:

Averil,
Superficially it seems a good idea to have differential fees but......... There always is a but, I see equal dangers in creating a nation of people who do not value the arts. However we have to find a way forward.
One circular discussion I was involved in this week was another seemly good idea of a variable graduate tax that benefitted people working in STEM based employment. The person making the suggestion rapidly changed his mind when I pointed out that Vince Cable would be a beneficiary when he was chief economist for Shell!!

Andrew Miller MP:

Jeanne,
I remember our conversation now!
You are right about teachers having the necessary support and training. IT is not the fault of teachers but we do need to rethink how support is given, hence my earlier remarks.
I look forward to continuing this discussion with you locally. Also as we get to the end of my week as UKRC guest blogger I hope that many other readers will engage with their MPs and push all of the important matters covered over the last few days. Remember there is nothing more effective than personal lobbying of MPs in their own constituencies.

Veronica Benson:

Andrew

I work with women with graduate, postgraduate and post doctorate qualifications in STEM, many of whom have had career breaks, seeking to return to work in these areas to make use of their skills and knowledge.

I also attended the UKRC conference where employers such as Microsoft among others told us they are always actively recruiting. However, they always say they need people who can hit the ground running.

How can we persuade employers to invest in upskilling or retraining women with STEM qualifications who are not using them to solve their skills shortage problems and review their recruitment processes in order to attract a more diverse group of applicants including women returners?

Andrew Miller MP:

Veronica,
This is where we get into heavyweight politics. If Government fail to make the UK an attractive place both to invest and to undertake research we will take several steps back. Next week's publication of the comprehensive spending review will be the key. Watch for this, if you don't like what you hear shout loudly! If we go backwards the cause of women will go back even further as illustrated by some earlier contributions.

Peter Lancaster:

Building upon Jeanne's comments and your reply.

Airbus UK’s Head of People Development – Engineering, Duncan Greenman, suggested that it is important to reach young people before their parents and teachers persuade them that maths is hard - before the age of about 8.
Most kids are fascinated by learning how things work, but can easily be put off when the adults around them can't or won't help them understand.

How do ensuring that our primary school teachers are comfortable with STEM, in order to inspire young people at this age to see STEM subjects as exciting and accessible?

Andrew Miller MP:

Peter,
Again this is where industry comes in. You mentioned Airbus - nothing better than that example to excite. Now I now Mr Greenman would not have let me play with his toys at Broughton or Bristol if I were 6 years old, but he could have come to my school to help inspire. Don't underestimate the importance of this for bothe girls and boys.

Ruth Wilson:

Andrew,

Thank you so much for being our guest blogger for the past week. You've given us a fascinating insight into your week, and you've handled a considerable range of comments and questions. We hope this enables more people to engage with the parliamentary process, and to speak up for gender equality in SET in influential forums and with their MPs.

We will be pleased assist the Select Committee in its work whenever appropriate. Perhaps in a year's time we could again host a blogger from the Committee, and so get an update on what has been accomplished and the priority concerns 12 months on.

Thank you for being so involved through this blog, and for being an advocate for women in SET in so much of your work.